Optimizing Lever Action Rifles for Modern Defense: Bryan Eastridge on Practical Upgrades, Pistol Caliber Carbines, and Home Defense Strategies

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Hi, welcome to the Armed Guardian Podcast, Season 2, Episode 19.

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Today, David and I will be talking with Brian Eastridge about lever action rifles and their viability for a self-defense rifle option.

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So sit back, stay tuned and listen to today's podcast option.

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Thank you, Hi, welcome to the Arm Guardian podcast.

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I'm your host, Brian, here with David, and we've got back as a return guest, Brian Eastridge.

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For people that don't remember, he came on earlier this year talking about revolvers.

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No, it was last year, I think it was yeah, I think it was late last year talking about revolvers and their viability in a semi-automatic world today as a self-defense weapon.

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So if you haven't heard that one, check our previous episodes and listen to Brian.

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But today we've got Brian on to talk about lever action rifles and are they a viable option for home defense or even self-protection.

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So, without any further ado, how are you doing, Brian?

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I'm doing well, man, just you know, enjoying retired life and uh and the busyness that that entails.

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Yeah, so, and you've had some family changes since we last talked to you.

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But, uh, how are you doing David?

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Doing good, doing good?

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Yeah, david rushed here after he got off work this evening and still pulling that, uh, that day shift.

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But, uh, we'll we, but we'll let him slide.

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He got here in time.

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Yeah, I like it pretty good.

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So, brian, I like to leave her gun.

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I like watching the old Western movies John Wayne's one of my favorites, clint Eastwood but I guess, in your opinion, what has led to the lever action being relevant today?

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Um, I mean, it's been out since the 1800s, about a century and a half, so any thoughts on that?

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yeah, I got a couple of different takes on that um, and one of them may surprise you.

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But number one, the number one thing I see and I'll never forget when Midwest industry started making forearms for Marlins right, it's been 10, 12 years ago and I thought what a goofy thing to do.

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Yet they were far ahead of the power curve when it comes to that, because right now, about 50% of the population of the US lives in a state or an area where it is grossly restrictive to own a semi-automatic rifle.

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So what's the next best thing?

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Lever gun, right, and I think the tech had kind of fallen off and had not really had any major improvement other than maybe machine work tolerances, things like that in the manufacturing side for like a hundred years.

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So, uh, the other thing is how many of us own like multiple modern sporting rifles?

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Right, it's kind of like saying, oh, I've got a honda, accord.

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Oh, and you know what?

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I just bought another honda.

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Oh, but wait, this one is in candy apple red with metallic paint.

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At a certain point they all do the same thing.

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Now I love, you know, the last 15, 20 years of development on the, you know, the modern sporting rifle or AR platform with multiple caliber, short action and long action.

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Now with 308, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 Grendel, 224 Valkyrie I mean the possibilities, they just they ran wild.

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But I think people kind of got bored with them and I'll say that the same as I say with revolvers.

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I kind of got bored with them and I'll say that the same as I say with revolvers.

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I think I'm seeing this uptick with revolvers because how many more polymer striker fired platforms can we really have before anybody goes, oh, that one's awesome if that makes sense, and I'm not knocking companies that put their entire you know all their eggs in the polymer striker fired basket.

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But we're seeing the same thing with 1911s.

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Right, like 25, 30 years ago, a polymer hammer fired 1911 was an oddity and it you might might see some dude that you know had a Learjet as his second vehicle, that that shot a you know some type of STI or an SV or something like that.

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There was a real limited space and now we've seen those come to prominence.

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Uh, when it's not really a new concept, right.

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But I think people have just gotten bored with the polymer striker fired world and I love polymer striker fired guns.

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I've got a pile of them Right, as well as single action hammer fired polymer guns.

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So the lever gun and the revolver and the lever gun were just kind of the next natural progression in that lineage of well, we've already seen this movie enough times, let's go back and revisit history and see what we can do with that.

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So I think that's a that's a large part of it.

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But the biggest thing I think that's driving it right now is just you know you get north of I-40.

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Now is just, you know you get north of i-40.

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There's a lot of states that do not care to have modern sporting rifles in and even if you can own them, the stigma behind them and the you know or the perceived stigma, and then the legalities and the hurdles you have to jump through just to own one, and then the legalities and the hurdles you have to jump through just to own one, you know, really put a damper on the availability and the popularity of them.

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So what are some of the pros and cons of Lieber actions over other types of rifles?

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Bolt actions, semi-automatic, especially with the modern sporting rifle.

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Well, the pros over bolt action are pretty, pretty simple.

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You can put more, you can put more ammunition in the gun, oh yeah, and it's a lot more rapidly deployable system.

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The cons are you're probably not going to get an 800 plus yard lever gun.

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It's just, it just doesn't exist currently.

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You know, inside of really 300 yards they're awesome.

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So, and if you look at the context of that, I mean, and if you look at the context of that, I mean, what are we like, even hunting, you know, is it ethical to take somebody out and go, hey, there's a deer at 500 yards?

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I think you can hit it?

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Probably not, but inside of that 100 yard window they're dominant, they're really really good.

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As far as semi-auto rifles, I'll never try to make the argument that it's better to have a lever gun than a semi-auto, especially inside of that 100-yard window.

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Is it the next best thing?

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Probably.

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And if you look at the manual of arms, they're very, very similar to a shotgun, and I attribute that one to Lee Weems.

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He and I had a deep conversation about it and he's like you know, when it comes to slugs and a pump gun and a lever gun, you're really looking pretty equally yoked there, right, right.

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So that's kind of the the.

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The window that I like to look at them through is practical engagement distances of game animals, right as far as inside the home.

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They really fall into the realm of the shotgun.

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That's kind of where they live to me.

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Fall into the realm of the shotgun, that's kind of where they live.

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Uh, to me.

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Um, now, one of the big pros is lever guns.

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You have a wide variety of cartridges.

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You can go pistol caliber all the way to really uh edging into that high powered rifle range.

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Uh, especially if you go into like 300 savage or some of those other obscure cartridges.

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But that's also a con Ammo.

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Availability of 300 Savage, it knocks on the door of 308, but you can't go to Academy Sports or Walmart and expect that they're going to have 50 rounds of that cartridge.

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But it really fills that gap, I feel.

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Feel like where, between a handgun and a bolt gun, which is also the same space that a shotgun lives in.

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That's for me, that's where it, where it really shines well, and we uh, I know we had talked about this before, but you know, with the speed, yeah, with the bolt action it's a lot slower because you're having to cycle the bolt manually.

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Uh, the lever action, yeah, you're still manually having to cycle it, but you can cycle it at a higher rate than the bolt action and, yes, not as fast as this, true, semi-automatic or msr, but you can get pretty darn close with practice.

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If I remember us talking, and to me, another thing I think is like when you're throwing a bolt you have to come off your grip, off the trigger guard, and you've got to throw that bolt and then get back on With the lever action.

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As you move that lever, you're coming right back where you.

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I mean, yeah, you're having to come out on like semi-automatic, but you're coming right back where you.

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I mean, yeah, you're having to come out on like semi-automatic, but you're moving right back into position naturally with the, with the motion of working, the action.

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Yeah, you're not completely losing contact with the gun, like you would be running a bolt, and now I've met some dudes that were sassy and gals that were sassy at running a bolt gun, right, um, I don't think you have to break the position as bad, because that bolt is not really coming back at your face as much as like hand bolt, bolt, lever, all those things.

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Um, however, now, like beretta's doing a straight pull, savage is doing a straight pull that you can run, really similar to a lever gun, and you can reach out with those guns there.

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They've kind of perfected that whole inline bolt thing with like six, five Creedmoor and some of those other really long distance cartridges, so so I think that kind of gets negated a little bit.

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But you're into the niche of the bolt gun world, right, you're not into the mainstream.

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But yeah, you're absolutely right.

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And to me, a lever gun and a pump shotgun the lever gun gives you a little more distance over a pump shotgun, but with a really similar manual of arms and a similar operational time on the gun, like how much time you're taking to actually, you know, unlock, eject, extract, relock and be able to be ready to fire.

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It's really similar to like a Remington 870 or a 590 Mossberg right it's.

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It's kind of in that window.

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So what brand, if any, is your, is your favorite when it comes to lever guns, and I guess why.

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Now I know you may have a couple for different purposes self-defense but your thoughts on that?

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Well, I'm kind of I won't put it into brand so much as pattern.

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So you've got Winchester pattern.

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Marlin pattern are the big two, right, that's the two that are just preeminent throughout the industry.

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Now Henry's got some different stuff and Henry's got everything from the 1873 Winchester pattern into their own kind of pattern of gun.

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Totally get it.

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But for me I like Marlin pattern guns and Marlin pattern guns have a fixed top strap.

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They have a side eject fixed top strap.

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You know a side eject fixed top strap, winchester's kind of top eject, right, there's, there's no fixed metal across the top of the bolt.

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Um, I like the Marlin pattern just because of the ease of accessorizing the sites, uh, which is something that it's only been recently that factories are are offering OEM sites that I feel like are adequate or beneficial.

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Basically a rear peep ghost ring, as we call it, on a shotgun with some type of high-vis front sight or a front sight.

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That's pretty prominent.

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So the Marlin patterns for me are much more adaptable to that than the Winchester pattern guns, winchester pattern guns and that could be like the Rossi R92, right is a Winchester pattern gun, the R95 now is a Marlin pattern gun, but Marlins to get a peep, sight back close to your eye require or, I'm sorry, winchester's require that you either drill and tap the receiver there's there's some gunsmithing involved, whereas a Marlin they've got scope, mount screws and, uh, you know, our buddy, andy Larson, over at Skinner sites has kind of cracked all the code on that.

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So, um, that's my favorite, and whether that be the three 36 and 30, 30 or or or a pistol caliber 94, um, I'm really big on the pistol caliber Marlin patterns.

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I think that's kind of where, um, that's where we all start and that's where we all come back to at some point.

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Oh, and that actually kind of leads well into the next question.

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Um, you're talking about the pistol calibers.

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What are the pros and cons of pistol calibers versus rifle calibers?

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Um, when it comes to lever actions, oh wow, that's a.

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That's a deep rabbit hole, david um, but I will tell you an interesting one.

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Yeah, like for me this is one man's opinion, right.

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I've had 45, 70 pattern guns, 35 Remington, 30, 30.

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They're cool, they do what they're supposed to do right Throw a big, heavy bullet a long distance.

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But for me, to fill that void of pistol to intermediate range, the pistol caliber carbines are where it really shines, and I'm talking .45 Long Colt, .44 Mag, .454 Casull.

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I have a .454 Casull and .357 Magnum, my favorite of which is a .357 Magnum, and the main reason is you don't have the punishing recoil that you have with a rifle cartridge in that platform.

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And I

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say punishing, that's subjective, right, uh.

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But you know, if we look at a three, 57 Magnum, it just to me fills so many gaps, um, and it's one of those cartridges that is, to me, really over pressured for a handgun and is perfect in a lever gun.

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But if you got to carry both, or if you got to carry something that has cartridge interchangeability, the 357 mag is the way to go.

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Now, rifle cartridges I love 45-70.

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However, 45-70 was built in the black powder era, so the pressure of that cartridge, where it shines, is shooting heavier bullets at lower I say lower velocities, but moderate velocities Whereas you get a .454 pistol caliber lever gun.

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You can get into the lighter bullets of .45-70 on a shorter action cartridge.

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So you know's some some real plus there.

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Plus you have the interchangeability of being able to throw 45 colt and get a couple extra rounds in the gun, so uh, and a little extra powder burn in the in the barrel, so uh.

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But where I really feel like it's the strongest is in that 357 mag, that's.

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Everybody should own a 357 yeah, that that's awesome.

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Um so, with that being said, is is the lever action?

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Do you feel like we've talked about this a little bit?

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So I mean you know, but maybe we could expound on a little more?

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Yeah, but is it a viable self-defense weapon?

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I guess you know why.

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Um, your thoughts?

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on that, absolutely, and they're 50 state legal right like, um.

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If somebody told me you have to go to a gunfight right now I'm going to take a shoulder mounted weapon, right, if, if I could predict my gunfight, um, um, if, if J dams were out and indirect artillery is out, the next best thing is a shoulder fired gun, a shoulder mounted platform.

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Um, if you told me it's inside of a hundred yards and I can't take a semi-auto, it's going to be a lever gun, um, maybe a shotgun.

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If you said, hey, the longest shot you're going to take is 25 yards, we got to go do X, y and Z and it's 25 yards.

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Okay, give me a pump shotgun or a semi-auto shotgun.

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Or, if I live in a state where a semi-auto is not not cool, give me a pump shotgun, right, that's kind of where, um, that intermediate distance is where those guns really shine, um, and so that's just one man's opinion, right, but that's probably as far as a home defense gun, the manual of arms is almost what a pump shotgun is, right, load the mag tube, let the hammer, let the hammer, let the hammer down, load the mag tube and get after it.

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Go, do, go, do work if you need to, and really inside a home defense distances, you know, buckshot versus slugs versus pistol caliber, whatever.

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I love buckshot.

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However, if, if I'm, if that's not an option, yeah, absolutely.

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Um, and I think defensive work with a lever gun is almost equal to a shotgun.

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Some people will disagree, I get it.

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Um, there's nothing says I love you.

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Like you know, nine pellet triple a lot.

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But if maybe that's not an option, then yeah, absolutely.

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A 357 158 jacket at soft point is a pretty good alternative to that, especially out of a 16 plus inch barrel.

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Yeah, yeah, um, and I guess another thing to me is is I think that you know it's, you know, when people see it, the optics are a lot better.

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You know, if I'm, if I have a 30, 30 in the truck or or even a three, 57 Magnum lever action versus a, you know, ar.

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In a lot of places they are drawn seems to draw more, I guess, attention maybe.

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Well, if you did use one, in certain States they're going to say it's a Marlin AR 15 and 30, 30.

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I mean, you know Glocks and AR 15s, that's like an interchangeable media blast, right.

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But now, if it's a camo pattern beretta shotgun, does anybody care?

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You know, if it's a lever gun, does anybody really care?

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It's got wood, what's that?

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um you know it's wood and metal.

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Who does that?

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It's, it's a wooden and metal Glock.

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I mean, you know, I think I'm 100% in agreement that the optics, especially if you're in a state that is AR unfriendly or semi-automatic unfriendly Illinois, but the optics of that in the home, oh well, man, this is my deer rifle and somebody broke into my house and I used my deer rifle to defend it.

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It does not conjure the negative perception that a blacked out rifle does.

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You know, with a 30 round magazine, right, um, and that's not to say that I am anti-ar, or or 30 round magazine, right, um, and that's not to say that I am anti AR or or 30 round standard capacity.

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Now, I am not, I am.

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I own multiple versions of those Cause I live in free America, south of I-40, but, uh, south of the.

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You know the communist line or whatever, whatever you want to call it, but uh.

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But I can say you know with, with a lot of confidence after being a cop, that it definitely does not have the same perception that a semi-automatic, modern, sporting rifle does.

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It just it does not ping people's radar nearly as bad.

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It just it does not ping people's radar nearly as bad.

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And that goes even into, like the semi-auto pistol versus a revolver conversation, right, you know, if you take the viewpoint of what do our, you know, liberal American views, look at a handgun for concealed carry, you know they, they kind of think of, like the nypd blue detective, you know, special gun or something, you know, uh, the atom 12 revolver, whatever it is right but, um, you know, so I I definitely think the public perception of it is much less impactful than you know.

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A striker fired semi auto with an 18 plus round magazine and a rifle with a 30 plus round magazine.

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I don't agree with it, but it's the world we live in, right?

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So yeah, yeah, I agree, and I think you know we have to, I guess have to adapt and and also I mean the wood grain, to me, you know the wood grains are always prettier.

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The wood stops, yeah, and even this thing is still the wood thing.

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That still looks good to me and I can tell you I I have actually set in a murder trial where a semi-auto short AK pistol was used and the looks on the jurors' faces when I introduced that gun was like, oh my God, you know.

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And when I actually did the safety checks on it and all that, and hey, this isn't a fully automatic rifle, actually did the safety checks on it and all that, and hey, this isn't a fully automatic rifle, people were just almost on the edge of their seats looking just by the looks of it.

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Um, you know, I've been in other court cases where a bolt action 22 rifle was used and people kind of like, okay, moving on, like it was, it did not have this, this resounding effect of that's evil.

00:24:58.896 --> 00:25:05.651
You know, uh, regardless of what us gun people know about that right.

00:25:05.651 --> 00:25:19.590
So, um, and really, if you look at a short ak and you look at a .357 mag lever gun, they look different, but ballistically they're not Right.

00:25:19.590 --> 00:25:42.527
So you know, for those of us in the home defense world or the personal defense world, a .357 lever gun versus a 10 inch chopped down, no stock pistol, ak, ballistically that that that lever guns doing a little bit more, a little bit more magic.

00:25:42.527 --> 00:25:44.265
So anyway.

00:25:44.827 --> 00:25:50.049
So, and we've kind of talked about this, you know you mentioned the three, 57 was your favorite caliber and I can definitely see why.

00:25:50.049 --> 00:25:54.106
But is there anything else I guess you'd like to add about home defense rifle?

00:25:54.106 --> 00:25:59.791
As far as the caliber, you know what's, I guess, the most viable option, or anything else on that?

00:26:26.180 --> 00:26:30.108
mainstream from probably about 1965, 70 until about 1989 or 90.

00:26:30.108 --> 00:26:31.613
So, people here, that was a 357 magnum.

00:26:31.613 --> 00:26:32.654
Yeah, it's, it's, it's what the cops carried.

00:26:32.654 --> 00:26:34.640
Uh, now, granted, it goes back in history way further than that.

00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:50.428
But um, but a little little nugget is, when you throw a 38 plus p in a 357 lever gun, it's doing what that nasty 357 mag is doing in your four inch service gun.

00:26:50.428 --> 00:27:04.242
And then you put a three, 57 mag full tilt load in your three, 57 mag 16 inch carbine lever gun and it's doing almost 30, 30, it's seven, six, two by 39 territory.

00:27:04.242 --> 00:27:12.267
Without the stigma of it looks like something designed in China or Russia.

00:27:12.267 --> 00:27:19.844
Straight wall .35 caliber.

00:27:19.844 --> 00:27:26.595
To me it's a bit disarming when you see grandpa's deer gun used in a home defense situation.

00:27:26.595 --> 00:27:33.103
But I'm a very big proponent of the .357 lever gun.

00:27:33.103 --> 00:27:37.347
I think it's fantastic you could do away with all other lever guns.

00:27:37.347 --> 00:27:42.494
I'd be fine with the .357 lever gun, even shooting .38s.

00:27:42.494 --> 00:27:48.344
Yeah, and I can dive into a deep rabbit hole on that.

00:27:49.184 --> 00:27:50.806
Well, I mean, hey, I'm enjoying it.

00:27:50.806 --> 00:27:54.169
So I guess now we can talk a little bit about accessories.

00:27:54.169 --> 00:28:00.653
I mean, now it seems like, as you know, we're seeing more with more lever actions, with rail systems and stuff.

00:28:00.653 --> 00:28:04.457
So you know, what's your thought on some accessories for the rifles?

00:28:04.457 --> 00:28:11.611
These days, the rifles are coming with more you know things to utilize the accessories, I guess.

00:28:11.611 --> 00:28:12.093
What are some of them?

00:28:12.093 --> 00:28:13.258
To optimize the use, what would you use?

00:28:13.258 --> 00:28:14.061
What would you recommend?

00:28:14.061 --> 00:28:15.346
You know your thoughts on any of that.

00:28:17.362 --> 00:28:20.537
I risk on a long gun, I like a light.

00:28:20.537 --> 00:28:24.911
Yeah, I shotgun rifle, it doesn't matter, I like a light.

00:28:24.911 --> 00:28:29.991
I don't like lights on handguns for for a litany of reasons.

00:28:29.991 --> 00:28:41.528
But but now we're starting to see like Smithith and wesson just came out with that 1854 stainless and it's a marlin pattern, uh.

00:28:41.528 --> 00:28:47.426
But they consulted with some, some dudes that were like, hey, how should we do the forearm?

00:28:47.426 --> 00:28:53.867
We'll put a, put a piece of m lock on each side so we can get a qd sling, swivel and we can get a light on it.

00:28:54.869 --> 00:28:56.540
Other than that, leave it alone.

00:28:56.540 --> 00:29:11.048
Um, but for me, yeah, for most of the stuff I use a lever gun for, I could take or leave light, but a sling is almost a non-negotiable thing, right?

00:29:11.048 --> 00:29:13.791
Uh, much like a shotgun.

00:29:13.791 --> 00:29:18.383
Whatever ammo is in the gun or on the gun is what you're going to fight with.

00:29:18.383 --> 00:29:24.834
So I do like what we call a butt cuff, which simply rugged leather.

00:29:24.834 --> 00:29:45.051
I got there are several, doc Beranti, from Beranti Leather is a leather stitched cuff that has shell loops on it, much like a loop loader you would use for, you know, like a cop duty gun in the 70s, right, like six or eight loops of where you can carry spare ammunition.

00:29:45.051 --> 00:29:59.296
I like that Wrist cuff, maybe something you can throw on that's got five or six shells on your support side wrist so you can load the gun much like a shotgun.

00:30:00.441 --> 00:30:19.101
Aside from that, good sights are non-negotiable to me and I am a big fan of XS and I'm a big fan of Skinner and I have both and I have both.

00:30:19.101 --> 00:30:29.760
And one of the things I see that you know Henry and some of the other companies have done is they've gotten with XS and they've gotten with Skinner sites and they've started to go yeah, nevermind the barrel mounted buckhorn sites, let's actually give these people a peep site.

00:30:29.760 --> 00:30:32.204
They can use pick rails.

00:30:32.204 --> 00:30:37.114
You know red dot optics are great on a lever gun.

00:30:37.114 --> 00:30:39.385
They they shine on a leather gun.

00:30:39.385 --> 00:30:56.260
Uh, mainly because, like with a three 57, you can actually keep your target in sight after you've sent one down range recoils low enough that you can keep sight of your target through a red dot site or a peep site.

00:30:56.340 --> 00:31:18.073
So, um, now I've seen companies you know midwest and some of the other, like a magpul does some, uh, you can get crazy with the accessories just like you can on a modern, modern, sporting rifle, but to me a sling in good sites, something to carry spare ammo in.

00:31:18.073 --> 00:31:28.798
But uh, you know, yeah, I mean, the options are limitless now, like they are with the, the AR platform.

00:31:28.798 --> 00:31:34.645
So, um, now your mileage vary, do you want it's America, do you know?

00:31:34.645 --> 00:31:36.019
Set your gun may vary, do you want it's America, do you know?

00:31:36.019 --> 00:31:37.767
Set your gun up however you want.

00:31:37.767 --> 00:31:43.807
But for me, I like a good sling and I like good sites.

00:31:44.969 --> 00:31:46.270
Okay, yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't.

00:31:46.270 --> 00:31:54.512
I mean I'm, I'm with you on that and and I like, and I'm the same way with a lot, uh, I like a lot of my rifle, but pistol, I mean I'm you know.

00:31:55.688 --> 00:32:00.691
I don't know, Maybe your your semi-auto nightstand gun yeah.

00:32:00.852 --> 00:32:01.152
Yeah.

00:32:01.420 --> 00:32:03.025
But carry day can kick.

00:32:03.025 --> 00:32:04.169
Concealed carry.

00:32:04.169 --> 00:32:05.986
Uh, I don't know.

00:32:05.986 --> 00:32:18.632
I've seen too many of the and even the law enforcement officers with bad training flagging people and flagging things using the light as an everyday flashlight.

00:32:19.554 --> 00:32:25.730
Yeah, Well, and you know it goes back to Colonel Cooper's four safety rules.

00:32:25.730 --> 00:32:27.473
Right, what's rule two?

00:32:27.473 --> 00:32:29.040
Keep?

00:32:29.060 --> 00:32:30.527
your finger off the dirt right.

00:32:32.500 --> 00:32:37.522
What's rule three Don't point your gun at stuff, don't to be shot.

00:32:38.064 --> 00:32:38.444
That's the yeah.

00:32:38.444 --> 00:32:53.733
So rule two and rule three when I see gun mounted lights, especially on pistols, yeah, bad stuff happens now on a lever gun, a, a pump shotgun, things like that.

00:32:53.733 --> 00:33:00.205
Okay, you know you're talking like a thousand lumen light with a big bezel on it.

00:33:00.205 --> 00:33:07.682
I can see where you can keep your muzzle off of people and still have enough light.

00:33:07.682 --> 00:33:08.563
That you can do.

00:33:08.563 --> 00:33:13.769
You know, you can operate it and I'm a proponent of it.

00:33:13.950 --> 00:33:19.256
But for me a sling and good sights takes precedent over a good light.

00:33:19.256 --> 00:33:31.434
Because if we think like we apply our noodle to this situation, how does a bad guy know where you're at?

00:33:31.434 --> 00:33:34.528
Do they just feel around in the dark and go?

00:33:34.528 --> 00:33:35.211
There's a victim?

00:33:35.211 --> 00:33:38.444
Probably not.

00:33:38.444 --> 00:33:40.833
Thank you, tom Givens, for that one.

00:33:40.833 --> 00:33:46.051
But they don't just stand out there and put their hands out and go victim and then grab them.

00:33:46.051 --> 00:33:48.969
This isn't the ocean, right?

00:33:48.969 --> 00:33:54.272
So there has to be some degree of light for them to select you as a victim.

00:33:54.272 --> 00:34:05.361
Well, that some degree of light is probably sufficient for you to deploy a handgun, a rifle, a shotgun to mitigate that threat, right?

00:34:05.361 --> 00:34:13.068
So I don't get wrapped around the axle about lights, but I will say a sling.

00:34:13.088 --> 00:34:17.019
I used to know a lot of guys that carried 870s and never carried a sling.

00:34:17.019 --> 00:34:19.489
I used to know a lot of guys that carried eight seventies and never carried a sling.

00:34:19.489 --> 00:34:26.653
And it was amazing, as soon as you went hands on, those people were like I don't know what to do with my hands other than hold this gun Right.

00:34:26.653 --> 00:34:29.550
So a sling became really really important.

00:34:29.550 --> 00:34:31.981
And sights man.

00:34:31.981 --> 00:34:36.853
What's more important than hitting what you are shooting at?

00:34:36.853 --> 00:34:53.550
If you have to deploy a gun and if you have to deploy something to save your life or someone else's, what's more important than being really really accurate with that on demand, than sights?

00:34:53.550 --> 00:35:03.262
Which is again why I think that you know red dot sights and shotguns and lever guns go hand in hand.

00:35:03.262 --> 00:35:09.112
Currently I don't have any red dot optic mounted on a lever gun, but that is going to rapidly change.

00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:19.764
I literally had a conversation with a guy from Aimpoint today about my next optic.

00:35:19.764 --> 00:35:20.126
So anyway, awesome.

00:35:20.126 --> 00:35:24.572
Well, I guess that pretty much covers a lot of you know what.

00:35:24.572 --> 00:35:26.603
I guess we had to talk to you about anything else.

00:35:26.603 --> 00:35:28.050
Mr brian, on your end, no I.

00:35:28.652 --> 00:35:42.891
I saw the article that you posted on your facebook the other day with the horace ross and I went through Rossi I mean, yeah, the Rossi, and I had forgotten about them for lever actions.

00:35:42.891 --> 00:35:52.853
Now everybody talks about the Henry's and Marlins and stuff, but I had forgot all about the Rossi and I was actually impressed with what they've got over there.

00:35:54.559 --> 00:36:01.972
Well and, and I'll tell you, I I have a relationship of a friendly relationship with Taurus and Rossi.

00:36:01.972 --> 00:36:05.009
I've done some consulting gigs with them.

00:36:05.009 --> 00:36:10.507
And Caleb Giddings I consider a friend.

00:36:10.507 --> 00:36:11.628
He's he's a good dude.

00:36:11.628 --> 00:36:20.481
However, I consider a friend, he's a good dude.

00:36:20.481 --> 00:36:22.364
However, I am in a space in life where I'm not afraid to tell you your baby's ugly.

00:36:22.364 --> 00:36:26.130
It doesn't affect me financially at this point.

00:36:27.293 --> 00:36:36.514
And what I will say is when Rossi released the 454 Casol, that was about 10 years ago and I jumped on it quick.

00:36:36.514 --> 00:36:40.469
Actually it was my birthday and my dad jumped on it for me.

00:36:40.469 --> 00:36:47.914
But one of my first rifles was a Rossi Pump 22.

00:36:47.914 --> 00:36:59.588
And now I think 1988, 1989, there was some real quality long guns coming out of there and that kind of faded away for a long time.

00:36:59.588 --> 00:37:14.876
You know they might have done some pump stuff, but lever gun wise I would say they are a neck and neck competitor to everything that's coming out right now.

00:37:16.780 --> 00:37:33.382
Being in the LE realm, which I've been removed from that for about a year and a half, I can tell you that people in my circles they recommend three guns a Winchester, a Marlin or a Rossi.

00:37:33.382 --> 00:37:41.554
The other ones they say, yeah, they're great guns, but when we shoot high volume they don't fare well.

00:37:41.554 --> 00:37:49.172
So there are other brands out there that they've seen, and that's in the Midwest.

00:37:49.172 --> 00:38:17.186
Here we still have a lot of rural counties that authorize lever guns for a patrol rifle and as they're going through training they see high volume, high round counts and what they, they tell me, is marlin, taurus rossi and then winchester, and that's the only three we recommend, so that now the, the psa stuff with magazines and all that that stuff hasn't really hit.

00:38:17.186 --> 00:38:44.273
What we're talking about is rural patrol cops and deputies that have their deer rifle or a patrol rifle and what they're seeing is durability wise, those three really stand out and a lot of the guys I know that are teaching with those rifles are like, hey look, the budget rifle, the Taurus Rossi budget rifle.

00:38:44.273 --> 00:39:09.371
It hangs right in there with them and knowing their staff and a lot of the C-suite level people at Taurus Rossi, what I can tell you is they're on top of it and they're willing to pivot quickly.

00:39:09.431 --> 00:39:33.644
I can't say enough good about that company and 10 years ago I would have been remiss to even say the T word right, but I've had several of their guns, I've shot a bunch of their guns a lot and that's where I think the break point is is a lot of people go, that's a really nice gun and I'm like, well, let's go shoot 500 rounds in a day and a half, two days, let's see how good that gun holds up.

00:39:33.644 --> 00:39:38.010
And most people never do that, which is fine.

00:39:38.010 --> 00:39:45.230
So you know that gun that starts with an H, I'm not going to bag on it.

00:39:45.230 --> 00:39:49.264
You know, if you're one of those people that shoots 20, 30 rounds a year, it's probably going to be fine.

00:39:49.264 --> 00:39:54.045
Go throw 750 rounds over three days.

00:39:54.045 --> 00:40:01.365
It may have a problem, but is that a problem enough that I'm going to tell somebody not to buy one?

00:40:01.365 --> 00:40:02.489
Absolutely not.

00:40:03.833 --> 00:40:06.280
I told somebody at Shootist Holiday.

00:40:06.280 --> 00:40:08.463
I was out at the Shootist event.

00:40:08.463 --> 00:40:17.375
I shot my lever gun .357 more there in two, three days than I had the previous 10 years.

00:40:17.375 --> 00:40:18.056
Wow.

00:40:18.056 --> 00:40:21.108
But the gun held up.

00:40:21.108 --> 00:40:21.681
It didn't.

00:40:21.681 --> 00:40:23.469
I had no issues with it.

00:40:23.469 --> 00:40:37.695
And it was surprising to me to see the number of names you would see in the industry right now that were shooting Rossi lever guns, just for you know, and running them out to 300 plus yards, like it was nothing.

00:40:39.501 --> 00:40:51.971
You know, and talking to Andy Larson from Skinner Sights, that's like, hey, I build sights for those because they fit the Marlin pattern guns and they do great work.

00:40:51.971 --> 00:40:57.679
So anyway, yeah, that's a deep rabbit hole.

00:40:57.679 --> 00:41:10.146
But what I will tell you is is if you are lever gun curious, there is nothing wrong with buying a pistol, caliber Rossi 92.

00:41:10.146 --> 00:41:14.735
There is and there is accessories out there for them.

00:41:14.735 --> 00:41:17.248
There are companies that do secondary support.

00:41:17.248 --> 00:41:24.344
They have a fantastic warranty that I have used my 454 Casol.

00:41:24.344 --> 00:41:26.291
About three rounds in it split the forearm.

00:41:26.291 --> 00:41:30.447
They replaced it in under a week.

00:41:30.929 --> 00:41:33.119
Wow, and that was 10 years ago, right.

00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:36.706
So I have no qualms with those.

00:41:36.706 --> 00:41:40.492
Um, marlin stuff.

00:41:40.492 --> 00:41:43.286
You know Ruger owns Marlin now.

00:41:43.286 --> 00:41:52.507
Uh, they're doing great stuff and if I were to tell somebody to buy your first lever gun I'd go hey, buy a three 57.

00:41:52.507 --> 00:41:56.199
You can shoot 3838s in it.

00:41:56.199 --> 00:42:05.733
All the accessories are available Midwest Magpul, all these different companies, skinner Sights why not?

00:42:05.733 --> 00:42:11.713
You're going to be into a lever gun with a Rossi for under a grand.

00:42:11.713 --> 00:42:18.811
So go buy a good sling and put some good sites on it and have have a ball.

00:42:19.632 --> 00:42:21.344
Yeah, that's good.

00:42:21.344 --> 00:42:23.599
I enjoyed this conversation.

00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:31.369
It's something that at the one of the ranges that I teach at the uh, they've had over the last two years.

00:42:31.369 --> 00:42:49.565
They have bought a, brought in a boatload of revolver lever actions and every time I go in, hey, check out our new toy, like yeah, yeah, and just uh, looking at all the accessories and and the rails that are coming with them now.

00:42:49.565 --> 00:43:16.081
Or, if you want to stay with stock irons, uh, no, the options are endless out there and I think David and I we discussed after our last episode with you about the lever action and the viability of it for a home defense and it's gotten our interest peaked up to hey, we might something we might look into ourselves might something we might look into ourselves.

00:43:16.101 --> 00:43:22.753
Well, here's a, here's a little thought like let's take a off the rack cylinder bore remington 870 and put a one ounce slug in it.

00:43:22.753 --> 00:43:26.668
What you, what are you comfortable shoot like?

00:43:26.668 --> 00:43:29.092
What distance are you comfortable shooting that at?

00:43:30.704 --> 00:43:32.387
with the rock, I mean with a ruffled barrel.

00:43:32.387 --> 00:43:43.809
Sure, yeah, I mean, maybe, I don't know, maybe 100 yards, maybe 50 yards would be comfortable, comfortable okay, same scenario.

00:43:44.391 --> 00:43:47.856
Let's take a 158 grain 357 mag.

00:43:47.856 --> 00:43:56.992
That's moving almost 1900 feet per second, with a decent set of sights.

00:43:56.992 --> 00:44:03.782
What distance are you comfortable engaging a human or deer size target with 150?

00:44:03.782 --> 00:44:21.385
But yeah, to 200, 150, yeah, okay, what's the recoil difference across those two massive right, that that one ounce slug with an 870 is gonna hammer you.

00:44:21.385 --> 00:44:25.018
What's that 158 357 gonna do?

00:44:25.018 --> 00:44:34.641
It's gonna go poof, probably to the point you can keep whatever you're shooting at within the peep site, right.

00:44:34.641 --> 00:44:38.445
How much velocity difference is there?

00:44:38.445 --> 00:44:41.990
They're tremendous, tremendous, right.

00:44:42.952 --> 00:44:52.592
Um, you know, what do you got to think about for holdover with a 1900 feet per second 158 grain versus a one ounce slug?

00:44:52.592 --> 00:45:01.112
You've got to think about it once you get past about 50 yards, right, what are you going to think about with the 357?

00:45:01.112 --> 00:45:04.759
Okay, it's in there, right?

00:45:04.759 --> 00:45:11.210
So to me that's that's a massive, massive advantage they have.

00:45:11.210 --> 00:45:15.657
Um, I, I can't say enough good about that.

00:45:15.657 --> 00:45:20.724
Um, if you want to dive into that rabbit hole for just a few minutes, go ahead.

00:45:20.724 --> 00:45:23.949
So, out at the Whittington Center.

00:45:23.949 --> 00:45:28.177
You guys familiar with the new Garmin Zero chronograph.

00:45:28.498 --> 00:45:28.699
Yeah.

00:45:29.521 --> 00:45:32.014
I bought one, oh, wow, because I love them.

00:45:32.014 --> 00:45:34.958
Well, I love all things Garmin.

00:45:34.958 --> 00:45:45.840
But somebody gave me a little skinny deal on it and I, I bought it and I immediately was like, wow, okay, this is cool.

00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:58.001
Uh, I've had lab raters, I've had the windscreen olers and all those setup takes about 45 seconds and that's mainly to just like enter the bullet weight.

00:45:58.001 --> 00:46:11.543
But I, I took a, uh, a three inch model, 13, 357, and I fired 158 grain Remington, 357 mag, high velocity.

00:46:11.543 --> 00:46:12.650
This is some ammo, that's.

00:46:12.650 --> 00:46:19.061
It was advertised as high velocity but it just 357 mag ammo.

00:46:19.882 --> 00:46:26.074
I shoot it across the chrono and it's like 1080, 1100, right in there.

00:46:26.074 --> 00:46:45.954
I put it in a 16 inch marlin, same load, bam, 1900, 1900, 1880, and I'm going wow, okay, well, I do some calculations and I go okay, well, that bullet drops about nine inches at 300 yards.

00:46:45.954 --> 00:46:51.083
So on the side of the hill is a two foot by two foot piece of steel.

00:46:51.083 --> 00:46:59.405
It's about a torso sized piece of steel and I hold it right at the top edge of the steel and I'm sitting there monotonously shooting this steel.

00:46:59.405 --> 00:47:01.954
Well, like it's.

00:47:01.954 --> 00:47:04.561
It's not even a challenge at this point.

00:47:04.561 --> 00:47:11.664
Wow, and I went man, we sacrifice that much velocity out of a handgun.

00:47:12.510 --> 00:47:19.764
So then I grabbed 38 plus P 158, same bullet out of a four or three inch gun.

00:47:19.764 --> 00:47:24.742
It's you know, nine, 20, 900, right in there.

00:47:24.742 --> 00:47:29.601
I throw it in a lever gun is 1300 feet per second pretty consistently.

00:47:29.601 --> 00:47:39.364
And I go, man, maybe with handguns we're blowing velocity out at the end of the muzzle just for effect, I don't know.

00:47:39.364 --> 00:47:46.014
Whereas we put that in a carbine lever gun and all of these other cartridges.

00:47:46.014 --> 00:48:03.016
What you start to see is, man, that .357 lever gun is vicious.

00:48:03.016 --> 00:48:06.666
You're getting all the powder burn.

00:48:06.666 --> 00:48:13.443
You're getting all the benefits of that cartridge that we wish we had in a pistol.

00:48:13.443 --> 00:48:28.153
So even if I take a .38 plus P that I can shoot out of a service size gun four inch stainless model 64 or whatever, and I throw that in a lever gun immediately, I gain like two 300 feet

00:48:28.193 --> 00:48:28.795
per second.

00:48:28.795 --> 00:48:32.563
So what's the downside of that?

00:48:32.563 --> 00:48:48.523
Then you go back in history and you start looking at how the west was one and you start seeing a lot of colt revolvers in 3220 and the henry lever actions in 1873s and 3220.

00:48:48.523 --> 00:48:50.130
Well, why was that?

00:48:50.130 --> 00:49:00.465
She had a cartridge that worked across both of those guns really well, same with the 3840 and all these other black powder cartridges.

00:49:00.465 --> 00:49:02.630
So it's not a new concept.

00:49:02.630 --> 00:49:18.081
But I really think with modern machining, modern specs, modern accessories and now modern ammo, you can really get a lot out of that gun versus.

00:49:18.081 --> 00:49:31.757
Am I going to punish my shoulder with a one ounce slug or triple op buck, or do I shoot what amounts to a Red Ryder BB gun at night, 1900 feet per second right?

00:49:31.757 --> 00:49:36.440
So anyway, I am off my soapbox now.

00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:37.382
That's great, I've enjoyed.

00:49:37.463 --> 00:49:38.164
I've learned my soapbox.

00:49:38.164 --> 00:49:38.744
Now that's great.

00:49:38.744 --> 00:49:41.518
I've learned a lot and enjoyed it.

00:49:43.291 --> 00:49:45.893
You're a wealth of knowledge, especially with your.

00:49:45.893 --> 00:50:00.512
That's why I had you on with the revolvers, because I know you are very loving of the revolvers and I am too of the revolvers and, uh, I am too uh.

00:50:00.512 --> 00:50:04.161
And then when we talked about the uprise of the lever action last time, I said that would be another good one to to bring on, because it's one.

00:50:04.161 --> 00:50:05.411
I don't think it's.

00:50:05.411 --> 00:50:08.757
It's growing, but it's just not there yet.

00:50:08.757 --> 00:50:10.201
I don't think uh.

00:50:10.481 --> 00:50:26.369
As far as replacing the modern sporting rifle as a self-defense weapon, no, and I and I don't think it ever will Um, kind of like, I don't think you're going to ever see cops wholesale carrying revolvers again.

00:50:26.369 --> 00:50:36.235
That's not going to happen, right, um, you're not going to see police cars with lever guns as opposed to, you know, a 14 and a half inch AR.

00:50:36.235 --> 00:50:38.175
You're just not gonna see that.

00:50:38.175 --> 00:50:44.762
Um, for us normal earth people, is that a bad option?

00:50:44.762 --> 00:50:56.322
Is, if I live in chicago, is it a bad option for me to have an 18 round glock, 17 and a an-15 with a 30-round mag?

00:50:56.322 --> 00:50:59.545
Potentially right?

00:50:59.545 --> 00:51:03.393
Look at what we saw in Kenosha.

00:51:03.393 --> 00:51:05.159
Who cares what happened?

00:51:05.159 --> 00:51:12.958
It was all about the AR, right, and that's not me jumping on a political thing at all.

00:51:12.958 --> 00:51:13.460
I don't care.

00:51:13.539 --> 00:51:23.820
Whatever that's all done, but imagine the public perception difference, you know, imagine the um.

00:51:23.820 --> 00:51:41.579
If I lived in new york state and I defended my home with an ar with a five round magazine in it, how much heat am I going to catch for having a semi-automatic rifle, if it's even legal Right Versus a .357 Marlin?

00:51:41.579 --> 00:52:13.960
Yeah, right, yeah, so, yeah, so there are considerations that us in the gun world, especially in the Midwest, that we don't like to acknowledge across the rest of the states of the Union, whereas, you know, most lever guns are 50 state legal, most revolvers are 50 state legal, most pump shotguns are 50 state legal.

00:52:13.960 --> 00:52:30.413
You can dive off into the weeds about ammunition types for New Jersey or wherever, right, but if I have a modern sporting rifle, is that even if it's legal, is that going to be a problem?

00:52:30.413 --> 00:52:37.762
Potentially, yeah, so, and that's even starting to trickle into gun-friendly

00:52:37.802 --> 00:52:38.161
states.

00:52:38.161 --> 00:52:48.644
I've seen that start to really trickle into gun-friendly states where it's like, well, he used an AR-15, the evil gun.

00:52:48.644 --> 00:53:23.425
Well, I got to tell you, at 150 yards, a lever gun versus an AR-15, unless we're shooting prone, there's not a whole lot of benefit, right, right, and that's something that Daryl Bulkey, my partner in American Fighting Revolver, and we talk about a lot, is if you go into the hotel lobby to check in in Philadelphia and you've got two 28-inch bird guns, you know, over and under shotguns, who cares?

00:53:23.425 --> 00:53:26.811
That's like playing golf to people, right, like that's.

00:53:26.811 --> 00:53:29.298
You know, oh, I'm a skeet shooter, I'm a bird shooter.

00:53:29.298 --> 00:53:29.900
Nobody cares.

00:53:29.900 --> 00:53:30.572
Who

00:53:30.612 --> 00:53:30.813
cares?

00:53:30.813 --> 00:53:38.155
If it's loaded with three-inch double-aught, like you know, is that any less effective?

00:53:38.155 --> 00:53:57.121
Um, so, so that's, uh, you know, I think in the pro 2a world we get really wrapped around the axle about black and white stuff and the realities of a lot of these places that we we go or we're preaching this message.

00:53:57.121 --> 00:54:04.496
Um, right, wrong or indifferent, the public perception is not what it is in other places.

00:54:04.496 --> 00:54:16.521
So do I feel less armed if I go to I don't know, california and I have a 357 lever gun, or I have a 30 round magazine in an ar?

00:54:16.521 --> 00:54:18.123
No, probably not.

00:54:18.123 --> 00:54:27.862
Um, if I have a home defense shotgun that's loaded with number four, buckshot, or do I have an ar?

00:54:28.402 --> 00:54:29.545
yeah you know.

00:54:29.545 --> 00:54:33.271
So I, I think we're really.

00:54:33.271 --> 00:54:49.978
We're really getting to the point where we split hairs about stuff like that and the bottom line is most of these quasi antiquated systems are extremely effective If you really know, and not even if you really know.

00:54:49.978 --> 00:54:59.887
But if you equate them to something similar right Lever gun shotgun, that's I think lever gun shotgun, that's I, I think lever gun shotgun.

00:54:59.887 --> 00:55:09.251
Right revolver handgun uh, the reality is you're probably gonna run out of ammo or you're gonna run out of time before you run out of ammo.

00:55:09.251 --> 00:55:12.836
So is a six shot revolver that bad?

00:55:12.836 --> 00:55:14.358
Well, probably not.

00:55:14.358 --> 00:55:22.175
If we look at all the statistics and all the things, are you really handicapping yourself?

00:55:22.175 --> 00:55:25.474
Not as much as people would have you think.

00:55:25.474 --> 00:55:29.293
I'll get off this soapbox now, david.

00:55:29.293 --> 00:55:29.713
It's good.

00:55:34.811 --> 00:56:01.657
I wanted to bring this to light here with this episode is no, maybe you thought about getting ar but, you know, afraid of the impression that others may think of you or no, maybe you're in a gun unfriendly ar area and but you want to have a good rifle to defend your home with and stuff.

00:56:01.657 --> 00:56:10.137
This is the perfect weapon to replace that AR platform if you're not able to have that.

00:56:10.137 --> 00:56:20.260
So this is a good episode and I thank you for coming on to talk about it and I think it's going to be eyeopening for some people.

00:56:21.081 --> 00:56:23.172
So Well, it's my pleasure.

00:56:23.172 --> 00:56:29.099
Hopefully I didn't jump on too many soap boxes, but no, yeah, thank you for sharing that information.

00:56:29.250 --> 00:56:33.121
That was a lot of information and, I think, very helpful yeah.

00:56:34.349 --> 00:56:44.590
Well, I I really helpful.

00:56:44.590 --> 00:56:46.494
Well, I, I really, um, I I am not, uh, financially or whatever, invested in lever guns.

00:56:46.494 --> 00:56:54.940
I am in revolvers mainly because I have a large collection of them, but as far as any companies telling me you've got to say this or that, I, I'm agnostic.

00:56:54.940 --> 00:57:02.478
If you build a good product, I love your product, um, so I, I don't have a bias towards either one.

00:57:02.478 --> 00:57:14.141
And I gotta tell you, I shoot a lot of carbine ar stuff, um, but under my bed, over there is a lever gun.

00:57:14.141 --> 00:57:16.344
So that ought to tell you something.

00:57:16.384 --> 00:57:41.873
And I live in one of the most gun friendly states in the union, right, um, and all of my home defense pistols are round, yeah, uh, and a lot of that is just familiarity, but, right, but, uh, but also, how's that gonna look when they take a picture in the crime scene photo of the weapon used to defend your home, right, and it just looks like some little.

00:57:41.873 --> 00:57:44.099
Oh, that's what police officers carry.

00:57:44.099 --> 00:57:45.943
They're round guns, they're revolvers.

00:57:45.943 --> 00:57:53.579
That's harmless, yeah, but and that's not a personal stance, I mean, that's just the world we live in.

00:57:53.579 --> 00:57:57.117
And I got plenty of semiautos.

00:57:57.117 --> 00:57:57.679
I love them.

00:57:57.679 --> 00:58:06.831
I absolutely love the fact that for sub $400, we can get a reliable striker fired semi-auto Excellent.

00:58:06.831 --> 00:58:09.117
Do I want that on the front page of the paper?

00:58:09.117 --> 00:58:12.911
If somebody kicks my door in, I don't know Right.

00:58:13.992 --> 00:58:16.094
So anyway, all right.

00:58:16.094 --> 00:58:26.063
Well, bonus question and I know things have changed for you and maybe this answer has also but what do you do away from work?

00:58:26.063 --> 00:58:31.067
Or, well, retirement, now that you do for relaxation, reflection, what's your hobby?

00:59:01.110 --> 00:59:01.871
Oh, man, Well, I play guitar.

00:59:01.871 --> 00:59:02.733
That's one that kind of takes people off.

00:59:02.733 --> 00:59:02.974
I do that.

00:59:02.974 --> 00:59:04.958
And then the other one, lately, is, you know, away from the gun space and all that is.

00:59:04.958 --> 00:59:06.302
I've started to enjoy traveling, which I never thought I would.

00:59:06.302 --> 00:59:07.364
So now, granted, that involves guns a lot of times.

00:59:07.364 --> 00:59:09.849
But you know, I, my wife and I, we there's a couple of places around Oklahoma.

00:59:09.849 --> 00:59:22.873
We can drive 30 minutes in any direction from central metro of oklahoma and be in a rural community or, you know, out of rural communities.

00:59:22.873 --> 00:59:25.219
So there's a couple of places around here.

00:59:25.260 --> 00:59:48.947
I like to go and just, you know, kind of be normal earth person medicine park that's a big one, it's a little hippie community, that arts and the river runs through the middle of the town and like to go down and just sneak away and go down there and just not have to deal with the hub like normal everyday stuff.

00:59:48.947 --> 00:59:52.614
You go to Southeast Oklahoma.

00:59:52.614 --> 01:00:02.557
There's cabins and big tall pine trees and, uh, lakes and rivers and all that, and, and I I am a bit outdoorsy.

01:00:02.557 --> 01:00:12.809
You know, I've got, we've got some family hunting land and I'll go hey, I'm going to go to the land for a couple of days and just like turn the cell phone off and disappear.

01:00:12.809 --> 01:00:15.076
So that's, that's been my.

01:00:15.076 --> 01:00:28.184
Uh, you know the, the, my, my most recent hobbies, but uh, but yeah, I don't, uh, I don't have a hobby that doesn't involve guns in some way.

01:00:29.110 --> 01:00:36.362
So, uh, but I'm looking for a new one crochetchet knitting, I don't know something.

01:00:47.849 --> 01:00:52.469
No, my wife tells me, the bad problem with my hobbies is I tend to monetize them so that they pay for themselves and then it becomes a job.

01:00:52.469 --> 01:01:08.610
But yeah, oklahoma is a great state we've got, like I said you, you can really literally go an hour in, uh, northwest, northeast, southwest or southeast, and you're in a completely different state you would think, I mean terrain wise.

01:01:08.610 --> 01:01:12.717
And there's uh, there's a lot of things to do here.

01:01:12.717 --> 01:01:18.286
That kind of shocked people Um, you know, nobody's going to like shoot arrows at you.

01:01:18.286 --> 01:01:30.376
There's, it's tame here, uh, but you know I can go from high desert to like high pines in an hour and a half, so so that's cool.

01:01:30.376 --> 01:01:37.860
Oh, and I do ride bikes occasionally, like road bikes, like I put on the spandex and go for a good bike ride.

01:01:37.860 --> 01:01:41.195
But hopefully you won't see too many pictures of that anymore.

01:01:42.878 --> 01:01:45.083
Yeah, I love, I actually love oklahoma.

01:01:45.083 --> 01:01:47.916
I've been out there I used to when I drove over the road.

01:01:47.916 --> 01:01:58.643
I worked with the company just across in the arkansas uh port and uh, we used I actually had some friends that were down in uh ardmore uh.

01:01:58.643 --> 01:02:16.737
That one was a paramedic and the other one was a uh deputy sheriff down there and then I traveled quite a bit and a friend of mine was in um, got out of the army, lived over in yukon uh and he taught that's where I live now oh okay, yeah, he's he's.

01:02:16.876 --> 01:02:27.862
He taught ROTC there at Oklahoma university, yeah, and I know a couple other people out in that area and it's just something that you've got a real nice area out there.

01:02:27.862 --> 01:02:32.601
I've been up to the Northeast, the Southeast, south, central, um central.

01:02:32.601 --> 01:02:34.659
It's beautiful out there.

01:02:35.989 --> 01:02:40.322
Yeah, and if it's not beautiful, just drive like 30 minutes in another direction.

01:02:40.322 --> 01:02:41.715
You'll find something right?

01:02:41.715 --> 01:02:57.880
Yeah, I do, that's the main deal, like biking and then travel, which I always hated traveling and now I'm like, oh man, I got another trip coming up, let's go.

01:02:57.880 --> 01:03:02.329
Especially being married.

01:03:02.329 --> 01:03:03.715
Now I get to go.

01:03:03.715 --> 01:03:06.034
Hey, you want to go to SHOT Show with me?

01:03:06.034 --> 01:03:09.695
Sure, it's a lot of fun.

01:03:11.059 --> 01:03:11.601
That's good.

01:03:11.601 --> 01:03:21.498
If anybody had questions wanted to get with you on lever actions, revolvers, with you on, um, lever actions, uh, revolvers, or you know, just pick your brain, what, what are, uh.

01:03:21.498 --> 01:03:23.257
What's the best way to contact you?

01:03:24.349 --> 01:03:27.579
So American fighting revolver.

01:03:27.579 --> 01:03:43.094
Now, Daryl bulky DB and I, um, we do a number of different training things but, uh, american fighting revolver at gmailcom that's a mouthful uh.

01:03:43.094 --> 01:03:48.001
Or why the letter y adam?

01:03:48.001 --> 01:03:58.922
At american fighting revolvercom, but the website is american fighting revolvercom and there's a support link, there's a contact us link there.

01:03:58.922 --> 01:04:01.826
Um, we do everything, man.

01:04:01.826 --> 01:04:07.059
We do, uh, pistol classes, we do shotgun classes.

01:04:07.059 --> 01:04:09.789
Uh, we've got lever gun curriculum.

01:04:09.789 --> 01:04:42.864
It's just, it's not very in demand Uh, and mainly we're carrying the revolver torch right now and we have a subscription paywall site where we profile historical revolvers and every Wednesday wheel, again Wednesday, we do a profile on a Smith Wesson, Colt, Ruger, Taurus, whatever it is, and we give you like whatever it is and we give you like the whole story, not just here's a Taurus 856 ultralight.

01:04:42.969 --> 01:04:43.753
It's an awesome gun.

01:04:43.753 --> 01:04:56.021
Moving on, we give you kind of the lineage, the history, the designs, things like that on just this vast array of historical guns, calibers.

01:04:56.021 --> 01:05:05.077
You know a lot of people don't know the difference between 38 Smith and Wesson and 38 special right, Like, there's a lot of that.

01:05:05.077 --> 01:05:15.862
I do some maintenance and gunsmithing tips and we have to keep that behind a paywall or, you know, uncle Zuckerberg decides that we don't deserve to talk to other people.

01:05:15.862 --> 01:05:19.639
So we do a subscription site.

01:05:19.639 --> 01:05:24.041
It's five bucks a month and there's a lot of information behind the paywall.

01:05:24.041 --> 01:05:26.735
Also, we have a product side.

01:05:26.735 --> 01:05:28.802
So we work with other manufacturers.

01:05:28.802 --> 01:05:41.458
We sell product on that website Bowman Pocket Holsters that's kind of been our forte for uh J frames and LCR revolvers and we've got grips coming.

01:05:41.458 --> 01:05:43.755
That's where you can sign up for.

01:05:43.795 --> 01:05:47.655
A class is under the shop link at American biting revolvercom.

01:05:47.655 --> 01:05:55.809
Um, that's really our kind of our central hub, Uh, and we do all the major industry trade shows.

01:05:55.809 --> 01:06:04.422
Now we walk around dressed to the nines and hand out swag and say you know, hey, and and do consulting with with gun manufacturers.

01:06:04.422 --> 01:06:15.476
So americanfightingrevolvercom is where that's where you can get db and I and we're on uh, the socials like instagram.

01:06:15.476 --> 01:06:17.302
We we're at AFR official.

01:06:17.302 --> 01:06:24.083
Same thing on Facebook AFR official for American Biting Revolver official.

01:06:24.083 --> 01:06:31.043
And we do every Wednesday we throw up a picture of a historical revolver.

01:06:31.043 --> 01:06:32.197
You want to learn more about it?

01:06:32.197 --> 01:06:41.530
Come behind the paywall and we will lead you into the rabbit hole of revolvers that we all think we can afford.

01:06:41.530 --> 01:06:45.702
But but we also do normal people stuff there too.

01:06:45.702 --> 01:06:51.583
So you know, Taurus Ruger, things that you can buy over the counter.

01:06:51.583 --> 01:06:52.795
We do a lot of that too.

01:06:54.353 --> 01:07:00.034
So, and you know we were we were behind the scenes on the Smith and Wesson ultimate carrier revolvers.

01:07:00.034 --> 01:07:10.545
So, uh, with Jason and Andrew Jason Klossner from Lipsy's and Andrew Gore from Smith and Wesson uh, we did quite a bit of consulting.

01:07:10.545 --> 01:07:11.730
We did their media event.

01:07:11.730 --> 01:07:27.679
Uh, we're doing a media event with Colt in October the Python Experience down at Gun Talk or Range Ready, which Tom not Tom Gresham, Ryan Gresham we're going to do an event at his facility.

01:07:29.231 --> 01:07:31.778
Yeah, we do the Revolver Roundup at Gunsite.

01:07:31.778 --> 01:07:34.938
Every year we're doing an East Coast Revolver Roundup.

01:07:34.938 --> 01:07:36.978
This year it's the Snub Revolver Roundup.

01:07:36.978 --> 01:07:42.842
It's almost sold out, so I don't know when this episode is going to drop, but it's august 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

01:07:42.842 --> 01:07:48.630
At the sawmill training facility in south carolina we're doing a snub revolver shoot.

01:07:48.630 --> 01:07:53.056
But if you have a four inch revolver we won't kick you out.

01:07:53.056 --> 01:08:08.782
So, um, and, and we're going to try to do a more of the revolver events on the east coast, uh, we also have an event we're probably going to do a revolver roundup mid-year in dallas.

01:08:08.782 --> 01:08:11.333
That's how big the demand is right now.

01:08:11.333 --> 01:08:16.161
So, um, yeah, americanfightingrevolver.

01:08:16.161 --> 01:08:21.177
If nothing else, sign up for our email list and it'll let you know where we're at and what we're doing.

01:08:22.895 --> 01:08:26.659
All right, I don't know if this has changed since the last time you were on.

01:08:26.659 --> 01:08:29.444
You're still doing the EDC belt code.

01:08:29.530 --> 01:08:32.170
I still own EDC Belt Company.

01:08:32.170 --> 01:08:34.918
It is serviced now by Concealed Carry Inc.

01:08:34.918 --> 01:08:52.760
So if you guys know, jacob Paulson, riley Bowman, um, brian McLaughlin from Mountain man Medical, that company conglomerate actually operates the company um, I just still set in the background and go, you know, hey, that's okay, do that.

01:08:52.760 --> 01:08:53.640
Uh.

01:08:53.640 --> 01:08:56.045
Yeah, those guys have been great.

01:08:56.045 --> 01:09:08.737
Uh, when I moved and and some other stuff happened, they, um, we've got another manufacturer building those belts and I really think they're building them better than I did, okay, even though mine were good.

01:09:08.737 --> 01:09:30.555
Uh, but if you got one pre-january of 24 that was me and another gal and a sewing machine, and now they're, they're, they're carrying the torch, but but yeah, edc belt codecom, it's, it's still there, it's, it's still chugging along.

01:09:30.555 --> 01:09:33.676
I just I'm not as involved with it as I once was.

01:09:34.840 --> 01:09:35.462
Yeah, we'll see.

01:09:35.462 --> 01:09:38.057
Yeah, I've had Riley and I've had brian on.

01:09:38.057 --> 01:09:41.956
Excuse me, but uh hadn't had jacob on yet.

01:09:41.956 --> 01:09:44.480
Uh, he'll be my next victim.

01:09:44.480 --> 01:09:47.125
Good, jacob is a dear friend.

01:09:47.451 --> 01:09:49.657
Yeah, um, love that guy.

01:09:49.657 --> 01:09:51.743
I can't say enough good about jacob paulson.

01:09:51.743 --> 01:09:56.021
So, uh, and concealed carry inccom, they also.

01:09:56.021 --> 01:09:57.430
They operate the website.

01:09:57.430 --> 01:09:58.833
So EDC belt co.

01:09:58.833 --> 01:10:03.597
It doesn't matter where you go to buy it, langdon tactical still carries them.

01:10:03.597 --> 01:10:08.822
They're the only outside vendor other than concealed carry Inc or the website.

01:10:08.822 --> 01:10:14.436
So, and yeah, that that product is still going strong.

01:10:14.436 --> 01:10:17.699
It's still as relevant as it ever was.

01:10:17.829 --> 01:10:26.581
I just don't have to sell them anymore, which is good, yeah, yeah, something off your plate so you can enjoy life retirement a little bit more.

01:10:27.511 --> 01:10:28.375
Yeah, I say that.

01:10:28.375 --> 01:10:31.657
And then I partnered up with Daryl Bulkey and we're busier than I've ever been.

01:10:31.657 --> 01:10:36.033
Well, we're as busy as I was with the belts.

01:10:36.033 --> 01:10:37.615
So, no, we're as busy as I was with the belts.

01:10:37.615 --> 01:10:42.282
So the good news about it is I don't have to deliver deliver product unless I got it in stock.

01:10:42.282 --> 01:10:43.302
So that's good.

01:10:43.743 --> 01:10:44.664
Okay, all right.

01:10:44.664 --> 01:11:02.855
Well, thank you, brian, for your time this evening and coming on and talking to us about the viability of lever action rifles, and hopefully it's opened up some eyes, given some people some ideas and some hmm, I need to check that out a little bit more and appreciate your time again.

01:11:02.855 --> 01:11:05.141
Coming back as a second time guest.

01:11:05.141 --> 01:11:08.618
You'll be our first second time guest.

01:11:08.618 --> 01:11:13.100
Oh cool, we haven't had a repeat guest on yet, except for you now.

01:11:14.310 --> 01:11:15.354
Man, I feel honored.

01:11:15.354 --> 01:11:16.296
I really do.

01:11:16.296 --> 01:11:17.360
I appreciate it.

01:11:17.360 --> 01:11:22.662
I remember starting into podcasting with Off-Duty, on-duty and Law Dog and all that stuff.

01:11:22.662 --> 01:11:27.381
It's a massive undertaking and I appreciate it.

01:11:27.381 --> 01:11:33.466
And any time I get to be on a podcast I really appreciate it because I've been on the other side of it.

01:11:33.466 --> 01:11:40.394
Yeah, and it's a lot of work that people don't understand and don't see most definitely is uh.

01:11:40.774 --> 01:11:53.842
I was a guest on rob's uh firearms trainers one time and I, after doing that, I thought about doing something more so for my students, uh, on a like a group setting.

01:11:53.842 --> 01:12:02.278
But then, uh, some people said you know, you told them what the ideas I had and they said you need to do a podcast and started thinking about it.

01:12:02.278 --> 01:12:11.542
Had done the episode with rob and like, okay, um, kind of can get into this and, uh, people have enjoyed it.

01:12:11.542 --> 01:12:21.675
They've enjoyed the guests that we've been able to bring on, the the different topics that are not norm for the typical firearms podcast.

01:12:21.715 --> 01:12:36.774
So so, yeah, and you know, people have no idea, man, I, my podcast, got a sponsorship one time and I figured out that I was working for about a 75 cents an hour for production, so that was good.

01:12:36.774 --> 01:12:54.413
So, man, you got to do it because you love it and I really appreciate any time anybody has me on because, like I said, I've been on the other side of the production in the post and it it's a grand undertaking and, uh, especially for the information you guys put out, it's, it's.

01:12:54.413 --> 01:13:00.391
You know, I, I feel like this generation of gun owners is spoiled.

01:13:00.391 --> 01:13:13.134
Yeah, because they can google it and somebody's going to tell them what to do, whereas you know my era we had to go buy a magazine or know somebody right, or buy a book and you know whatever.

01:13:13.134 --> 01:13:30.184
But uh, but I'm glad there are people that are still out there carrying the torch, and the only other thing I would say to any of your listening audience is, if you haven't yet, go buy a Rossi three 57 lever gun and just have fun, man.

01:13:32.331 --> 01:13:35.720
Let's go on my radar for my next uh purchase.

01:13:35.720 --> 01:13:38.338
Maybe I might can get a Christmas gift out of that.

01:13:38.338 --> 01:13:39.713
Maybe you should, yeah.

01:13:42.131 --> 01:13:46.020
And then puts you know, put a, put a Skinner barrel matted side on it.

01:13:46.020 --> 01:14:00.841
Put a butt cuff from simply rugged Done yeah Sling from you know, get with doc Peranti, get a good sling, You'll be just in it to win it in no time.

01:14:01.869 --> 01:14:02.271
All right.

01:14:02.271 --> 01:14:05.396
Well, thank you again, Brian, and we hope to have a good evening sir.

01:14:06.130 --> 01:14:07.194
You too Take care.

01:14:16.032 --> 01:14:19.931
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01:14:19.931 --> 01:14:26.556
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01:14:26.556 --> 01:14:33.914
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